PFC Minutes

Minutes of the Police & Fire Commission meeting held on March 3rd, 2010 pursuant to notice duly given.

1. President Olson opened the meeting at 4:45 p.m.
2. Roll call: Dick Olson, Ron Hayes, Tim Longsine, Gene Berth and Steve Gering. Also present: Mayor Nerenhausen, Chief Don Phillips, Chief Dale Carper and Linda Belongia Administrator and as recording secretary.
3. Moved by Gering seconded by Berth to approve of the agenda as presented.
Motion carried upon verbal voice vote. 5 ayes
4. Moved by Hayes seconded by Longsine to accept and place on file as typed the minutes from the 1/14/2010 and 2/15/2010 meetings.
Motion carried upon verbal voice vote. 5 ayes
5. Correspondence/public input: Belongia provided memo on bids received for suburban, placed on file.
6. Discussion/action/update:
a. Bids for squad car: Chief Carper opened the bids: North Bay on a 2010 Chev Impala for $21,658; Koehne for a 2010 Chev Impala for $22,161; and Peterson Ford on a 2010 Crown Victoria for $20,800;
Olson questioned exchanging of the light bars, etc; Carper stated going with a Crown Vic will require a new internal cage and mounting kit for the light bar; Gering asked what will this costs; Carper stated a cage $300 to $500; protectors for the windows $70 each…total of $1,000 or less; this car would replace one of the Chev Impala’s; Discussion; Gering questioned engine sizes; Berth stated county went with all Fords; Berth stated we should get Frank from the county to trade the radios etc from one car to next; Gering stated we need to make sure he is licensed and insured; Carper stated will be a trade off; ’07 had rear wheel issues, appears we are going through brakes faster; officers would take larger vehicle; large vehicle with gas use is a trade-off for the mechanical issues we are experiencing;

Moved by Berth seconded by Gering to accept low bid from Peterson Ford for a 2010 Crown Victoria for $20,800.
Motion carried upon verbal voice. 5 ayes

b. Discussion on check register and financial reports; Hayes questioned invoice for Color Tech; Chief Phillips this is for a 3 x 5 retro reflective vinyl sticker that will be place on the back of the truck that is used on the scene to block for emergency situations;
Moved by Hayes seconded by Berth to approve of the listing of accounts payable for $15,226.03 and the financial reports and place on file.
Motion carried upon verbal voice vote. 5 ayes

c. Discussion on police, fire & ambulance reports. Carper handed out Jan & Feb police dept reports stating the new format is still a work in progress; Berth questioned why the Right turn sign was taken down? Carper briefed PFC on com of the whole discussion; Phillips handed out the Feb report; comment on increase in overtime for Feb our EMT’s required some training only had month of Feb to get this done in which resulted in more OT for the month; Phillips stated Jack Mlnarik has been accepted into the National Fire Academy in September, which is similar to the FBI, only costs will be for his meal ticket of $130 plus maybe some overtime depending on scheduling of his time while he is gone;
Moved by Hayes seconded by Gering to accept reports and place on file.
Motion carried upon verbal voice vote. 5 ayes

7. President Olson stated the PFC may vote to convene into Closed Session pursuant to notice duly given and as allowed by Wis. Stats. [1][c] & [e] for discussion on report from Chief Carper on investigation of complaint; citizen complaint and police & fire report.
Moved by Berth seconded by Gering to convene into Closed Session at 5:35 p.m.
Motion carried upon verbal roll call vote. 5 ayes

Chief Phillips left the closed session.

Closed Session

8. Moved by Berth seconded by Gering to reconvene into Open Session at 5:57 p.m.

PFC recessed at 5:57 p.m. to move to the multi-purpose room for the remainder of the meeting as duly noticed.

Also in attendance per the notice duly given was Chuck Hale, Resource Management Group; Atty. Jim Kalny; council members: Jack Maas, Tom Fulton, John Wittkopf, Ken Exferd, Mayor Nerenhausen, Al Schreiber, Joe Stiloski, Dick Doeren, Marlene Zahn and Ed Young.

9. President Olson stated Resource Management Associates (RMA) was selected after a request for proposals was sent to eight different consulting agencies who specialize in police and fire issues; in it’s 26 year history RMA has done over 200 studies of public sector entities, with an emphasis on police & fire depts.; they are a Chicago based firm, but have done much work in Wisconsin with resume’s including work in DePere, Ashwaubenon, Neenah, Mukwonago, Pewaukee & DeForest; the Oconto study was conducted by three individuals; the person presenting the report tonight is the President Charles Hale, who has 39 years of experience in public protective services, first as a police officer and then as a consultant; the purpose of this meeting is to hear the report and allow for questions; I am asking that you maintain order and make sure everyone hears the portion of the report they are interested in, Mr. Hale will first give his report and ask that questions be held until he is completed; we ask that the questions be directed to issues raised in the report and that exchanges be respectful and based on the content of the report; the purpose of tonight’s meeting is to hear the report; understand the consultant’s conclusions and the reasons for them; and to gain public input; no action is taking place tonight and the issues raised by the report will be subject to debate by the PFC and the Common Council; the consideration of what if any of the recommendations of the report will be considered and implemented at a later time; with this in mind Mr. Hale will present his report;

Chuck Hale apologized for having to reschedule earlier meeting; gave brief overview of the report; stated we need to put the report in the proper perspective; such a report is not the end, but really the beginning, is offering in excess of fifty recommendation for changes, some at little or no costs…report is food for thought; some recommendations have already been implemented; applauds Chief Phillips on getting these done; some recommendations in the report may take 5-7 years, some may never come to be; doing away with full time to part time or having a combination dept, on other hand we as the group doing the study were paid by the tax payers to give our recommendations after our study was completed; some recommendations will not be accepted very well by some people in this room; Hale stated he has done this for over 30 years; hopefully our report will be a blueprint for the PFC, Council, Chief’s and the Administrator to work with;

John Reed questioned the report stating that the per capita costs for the fire dept is $168; the fire employees came up with $52 per capita as the ambulance generates revenues, was this taken into account by the study group?

Hale stated he recognizes the fire dept provides a service that generates revenues, and the revenues are not reflected…figures came from a third party source, the Wisconsin Taxpayer Alliance; recognizes that revenues are generated by our fire department;

Jack Mlnarik asked then if the $52 the fire dept came up with is a true reflection, would be a better number to use;

Hale stated they maybe much closer using $52;

John Reed stated apparatus for the ambulance in particular is mentioned in the report to be replaced within two years;

Hale stated real issue is having a capital budget for vehicle replacement; recognizing that Reed and staff have the resources to evaluate the equipment and advise on replacement;

Ann Peggs, resident and employed at the hospital questioned Table 2.9 in the report;

Hale stated they were trying to compare cities by demographics and size; contacted Chief’s in comparable cities and incorporated in the report what was provided;

Dr. Bivins referenced Table 7.1 comparing…communities; stated Sturtevant, Bristol, Delafield;

Hale stated they took a map and looked for smaller rural communities for comparisons; anyone can draw from the comparable data whatever you want; we were not out to find communities to support our conclusions; we found comparable communities; no perfect science; no two communities are the same; data makes a pretty clear argument;

Dr. Bivins stated data not fair;

Hale stated you have to look at how does Oconto stack up against other communities;

Jack Mlnarik stated per capita costs did the study take into account revenue from townships and debt service…$52;

Hale stated would have to see how the taxpayer report was generated;

Glenn Sowle stated the report says we need equipment…get used stuff from other communities;

Hale stated the perception they received during the fieldwork for the study was that sometimes requests for funding falls on deaf ears; understands PFC is in charge of the budget; PFC needs to be better informed as to needs of the Police and Fire departments…and make better decisions;

Joe Stiloski questioned if RMA did Menasha…;

Hale, no;

Chief Don Phillips stated looking at the fire dept., it is necessary…valid question, but need to understand, primary function of the department is more than 70% EMS supported; fire dept is actually a small portion of the dept that provides a valuable service; Phillips stated he has over 30 years of experience and asked that the city officials take this into account when making decisions;

Hale agreed with % provided for EMS vs. fire, primary responsibility should be major consideration of this group as they evaluate the future of the depts. at no time did the group come to the conclusion that the fire or police dept are doing a poor job…and feel they will continue to do so;

Ann Peggs questioned the ISO ratings and staffing recommendations;

Hale stated the goal would be to get a lower rating; Ernie Russell another member of RMA could better address this questions, but the impact on businesses...having a good fire dept…would be an inducement for community development, but would not have to be a full time dept; referenced his community, Tingley Park, IL, urban community, has five fire stations, ISO rating is 3 or 2 and operates with a paid on call (POC) department…may have a handful of full time; next door the community has a fire district…operates with six stations with 125 full time fire employees;

Jack Mlnarik questioned if they provide EMS service?

Hale stated yes both communities level of EMS is ALS;

Ann Peggs stated the report compliance with meeting expectations…without having a full time station will it be difficult to meet expectations;

Hale stated will be a challenge, but can be done; question raised, where do we find volunteers, hard to find good part-time people…different lifestyle and culture; Tingley Park cross trained their public works people as fire responders; challenge we have is making this work;

Laura Cormier, stated as a follow up to Chief Phillips comments, the level of service our fire dept employees provide has allowed for some people to be alive in this community because of these guys; data used should be an apples to apples comparison; hospital has a $14M expansion…will provide 75 new jobs…Green Bay is moving North; Cormier stated Chief Phillips has made a lot of changes…need to look at what the impacts are of the changes he has made;

Hale stated he is aware the medical community supports the departments;

Glenn Sowle stated the reports talked about the investigator position…what is group’s recommendation;

Hale stated he was a detective years ago in a dept this size, and he finds it very hard to justify someone who is assigned entirely to investigations; believe in uniform patrol officers investigating their own cases, understands there are some exceptions, but the exceptions are not the rule; cops want to do things, happy when they do something; with limited staffing we have, if you are going to call someone a sergeant, then have him function as a sergeant, out on the streets, not making phone calls, sitting behind a desk, as a sergeant make him supervise; most of the calls your dept gets, the patrol officers are fully capable of investigating and the few you get, a patrol officer can spend no more than 20 hrs/wk;

Sowle stated doing our own investigating takes away from our patrol duties;

Hale stated he would question how often this is the case, investigating should be a secondary role; feels this is the exception, not the rule;

Sowle stated we’re getting more cases, with our schedule, cases get cold;

Hale stated same thing would happen with a detective, days off, something to consider, doesn’t impair investigation;

Joe Stiloski questioned what is Hale’s familiarity with a Public Safety Director?

Hale stated he is familiar with Shorewood, Fox Point, Brown Deer, having a Public Safety Direction; feels this makes sense in smaller depts.; a Public Safety Director provides good management; one person managing both depts.;

John Reed questioned how about having a chain of command in the fire dept?

Hale stated they are in agreement and this is in the report;

10. Moved by Berth seconded by Hayes to adjourn.

Ann Peggs questioned what is the next step?

Dick Olson stated the report has been accepted so now the PFC and the Council who holds the money for the budgets will have to work through the report.

Meeting adjourned at 6:56 p.m.


Minutes submitted by
Linda M. Belongia
Administrator